Episode 48 | Special Guest - Sinéad D'Arcy

Welcome to the Better Workday podcast with your host, Niamh Moynihan. In each episode, Niamh shares new insights and practical ideas to help you create a better workday.

 

Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Better Workday podcast. How are you doing?

 

I am delighted today to have one of my Better Workday champions on with me in the podcast. Let me introduce to you Sinead D'Arcy.

 

Sinead is an early talent strategist and founder of Future Roots. But I met Sinead back when she was working with Irish Distillers when she was head of the Jameson International Graduate Programme, and she was there for 12 years.

 

And the reason I wanted to get Sinead on the podcast, and I will let her do the formal introduction herself in a the reason I wanted her on is when we worked together, it was so second, obvious how much she genuinely cared about the development of the graduates, how much she enjoyed working with people who were early in their career, and just the ideas and the creativity she brought to the role to make sure that that experience was beneficial for the organization, yes, but also for every single individual.

 

And so when I started having guests on the podcast, I just had to have Sinead here, and I know that you're really going to enjoy this conversation. So Sinead, welcome, welcome, to the Better Workday podcast. How are you doing?

 

Hello, Niamh. Great to be chatting with you. I'm great. Good, good. So let's start by giving people an idea about what you're doing now with Future Roots, which is your own company, and what your work is like, and maybe a little bit more about your background and the experience that led you to setting up Future Roots. Yeah, so, um,

 

I am an early talent strategist. So basically I love, um, talent, and I love helping people to unlock, uh, their potential, so to understand their superpowers. And by doing that, uh, you know, you help organizations unlock the power of its people. And I always believed that people were the roots from which future business success grows, and that's really where the name of Future Roots came from because, you know, I'm interested um, people, talent and unlocking talent, but in particular, the future roots of organizations, which are that early talent, uh, in, so graduates, interns, and an increasing focus on apprenticeships as well.

 

So I help, uh, employers in my role as an early talent strategist, um, in, uh, creating graduate programs, internships or apprenticeships. So people will come to me with questions like, "Uh, I've been tasked to set up, uh, a graduate program. Where do I start? How do I create a selling deck for my senior leadership team so I can get the budget and the resource I need to do this?" Uh, other clients would come to me, or partners would come to me and say, "You know, uh, we have a graduate program, um, but there seems to be a changing expectation among graduates. I don't really understand this. Can you help me understand the generation?"

 

Um, and of course they are Gen Z or centennials. Somebody else then might come to me and say, "We have a graduate program. Um, we feel like we're doing a good job in attracting them in, but we actually don't have a structured, um, development program. Can you help us shape that?" Uh, or another popular one right now, uh, is, "Uh, we have a graduate program, um, but our managers don't know how to get the best out of the graduates. There's a lot of frustration. Can you help our managers, uh, understand how to unlock the talent of this generation?" So that's kind of some of the things that people come to me looking for.

 

Um, I've been in early talent, uh, early careers for 20 years now, which is scary to say out loud. Um, I started off in Ericsson, set up their program many years ago.

 

Uh, then moved to Ulster Bank, uh, and, uh, ran their graduate program and set up an internship program for them. Um, and then actually went to Irish Distillers and had 12 very happy years there as head of the Jameson

 

International Brand Ambassador Programme. But there's always been, uh, that kind of love for talent, and love, like I said, for growing potential and unlocking, uh, people's superpowers. So that's where, that's- that's how I got to where I am, and that's what I do today with employers, that full 360 experience from the candidate journey, so how do you attract them in, to the employee journey, how do you develop them and- and- and retain them? So wherever the pain point is for an employer,

 

I can help them with that. That's brilliant. And like, talking to you, I can feel the passion, I can feel how much you enjoy the work, and you know, I just think that's a huge part of getting to a better workday, and we'll talk about that in a second.

 

But before we do, it's so interesting, you're the first person who's used the word "centennials" to me, and that just shows how much you're thinking about the future roots, like everyone talks about the other generations, and so nice to see that you do it's just keep an eye on everything and that you're trying to support people that are coming through.

 

And the other thing that I think we should get into actually on this episode is this idea of how can the managers support the graduates? Because, you know, I've met a lot of young people early in their career, and they've got so much potential, so much talent, they want to do so much, and they're going to be fantastic, but if they don't have the management or the support that they need, that could go in any direction. So I- I'd like to get a little bit into that in a second.

 

Before we do that, what does a better workday mean to you, Sinead? Wow. Uh, well, that's a big question really, isn't it? Uh, you know, it seems like a simple question, but it's- it's actually quite a big question.

 

Um, and I suppose what a better workday means for me probably changed over the years. Um, so, you know, you know, I was a team member, I was a manager, a leader, and now a business owner.

 

Um, so I suppose early in my career, uh, what did it mean to me? It was probably about getting stuff done, you know? Yeah. Probably about delivery and productivity, you know, and making sure that I could show, you know, my boss or my manager that I could get stuff done, that I was capable.

 

And that probably then evolved into, you know, you know, doing more tasks, wanting more projects, taking on more responsibility, and I suppose I went through a phase where it was like about more and more and more, and that was- that was what a good workday was about, like give me more work, give me more responsibility.

 

Um, and I suppose at that point it probably was-... probably, when I think about it, too much focus on the inbox and thinking that, you know, emails were work, you know? And making sure that I got through them.

 

Email- emails equal work. But actually then I suppose you move on, don't you, in your career and to understanding how to work smarter, not harder. Um, and, you know, I really started to think about work through a more strategic lens.

 

Mm-hmm. And meaningful work to me then was about moving away from emails and it was about project work, uh, meaningful project work that changed the dial for me in terms of skills I was learning or changed the dial for my team or for the company that I was working with.

 

Um, I began at that point probably to think about, you know, what am I good at? Yeah. What do I enjoy doing? And I just focused on doing more of that because that's what I was hired to do in terms of add value to the organization by using my super strengths.

 

And then where there are gaps, bring in others like yourself to collaborate with or connect with. Yeah. Um, um, other people who had those right skills. And I suppose today and I was a business owner, it really is a better work day for me is about fulfillment and it's about happiness. Um, and you know, a better work day for me now is probably more about output than input. It's not about the amount of hours I work. It's about the quality of the output that I do, the quality of the partnerships and the relationships that I have. And I remember

 

I had a training, um, God, years ago. And you know, sometimes you remember things that stand out for you and stick with you- Yeah. ... um, you know, that you, when you, when you go to training sessions.

 

And I remember learning about the 80/20 rule for the first time. Right. And you know, like, 80% of results come from 20% of the effort. And you know, that those vital kind of significant tasks give you the most learning and the most impact, and obviously help with your career progression. And then of course, after that, I read Eat

 

That Frog!, the book. Oh, yeah. And that further consolidated that, you know, by, um, getting the big task done, um, those larger tasks, you have that greater learning, greater success, greater opportunity for progression.

 

And then I kind of learned that really for me a better work day isn't about managing my time, it's about managing me. Oh, yay! Well, this is why we love to chat. But yes.

 

That is exactly it. It's all about self-management, time management. And it's funny not when you go through your career like that, interesting to see how isn't it it changes and develops over time? Of course, when you're early in your career, you do have to focus on getting things done because that's how you learn, and then that allows you to change your perspective.

 

And when we talk about the 80/20 principle, you can't get away from it because it's everywhere. But I sometimes think people forget that when you're starting out in your career, and you might even be finding this now as your new business is taking off, and I know it's, it's really, really successful even so far, that you have to put in

 

80% of the activity will help you find the 20% actions that will drive you forward. So when you're early career, the 80% of that stuff is actually very, very important because that's almost like the foundation that will build those 20% skills later on in your career, and that's what allows you to change over time, if that makes sense.

 

So, um, I really like that. And I do love Eat the Frog! but I'll be honest, I never eat the frog. I start the day off with, like, the equivalent of, like, an ice cream, and I ease into my day, and then I kind of approach the frog once I feel like I'm a little bit happier.

 

So, you know, they'd kill me now if they, if they had me on it. But like we all have our own preference, isn't it? Exactly. So, so tell me this, right? So we touched on managers just a second ago, but

 

I think there are... is a big difference between experienced managers and first-time managers.

 

And I'd love to understand if you see any challenges in creating a better work day if you're in that role as a first-time manager, maybe as opposed to a more experienced manager. Yeah. So look, the role of the manager is key. So it is. Yeah. So when we talk... A, a lot of employers come to me and, you know, talk to me about retention. "How do we keep these guys?"

 

So one of the legs in the stool as to how you keep, you know, any talent, but in particular early talent, is the manager and the role the manager plays. So people in work have lots of relationships. They have, you know, peer relationships, buddy relationships. They may have mentoring relationships.

 

But the most important and influential role in terms of productivity, engagement, happiness, and then just retaining people, uh, is the manager. Yeah. So, you know, managers play a key role in organizational success.

 

Um, and also, like I've had some wonderful managers, as I'm sure you have had over the years, and they have helped me personally to grow- Yeah. ... and given me really good advice. But whether you're an experienced manager or a first-time manager, um, managers tend to be time poor.

 

Um, we see in research a lot them referred to as like the squeezed middle. Mm-hmm. Um, because they're trying to balance their workload, uh, their people management responsibilities, you know, leadership responsibilities or demands. And typically, first-time managers, um, can be the managers of early talent, and that's where organizations bring me in then to do some training with those managers to help them understand early talent, but also understand their role in managing- Very good. ... and getting the most out of them.

 

And I suppose like managers, when we think of it, it's, it's very hard being a manager in the current work context, again, if it's first time or experience. You know, you're managing diverse personalities, abilities, experience levels, different generations now. There's four generations in the workplace. We have Boomers, Gen X, Gen Y, which are our Millennials, which we all know a lot about. And then, of course, the newest entrants to the workforce who are Gen Z and

 

Centennials that we mentioned earlier. And they all come with their own set of different expectations. Then if you layer that on with the change that's still happening in terms of work models- Yeah. ... you know, managers have to manage that too.

 

Like, how to make sure their teams feel connected, that they- Yeah. ... feel like they have a purpose, that they're all rowing in the same direction towards the same goal, etc., that they're engaged. And then of course, you know, managers have to deal with these new technologies, um, that are coming our way. You know, AI has had a massive influence on all of our, uh, ways of working over the last 12 months.

 

And what I feel working with organizations and managers at all levels right now is they're expected to do more with less.... and, you know, it really is a very difficult, uh, time to be a manager. But when we talk about the retention piece, um, for, uh, employees, uh, there was a Stanford study, uh, that found that 25% of employees that were surveyed rated their managers as poor communicators. Oh. And we know that communication is the foundation of any good relationship, uh, in business, um, and so these managers really need support, uh, as first-time managers. It's like as if when you're told to be, you're gonna be a manager, a switch should be turned on in HR that says, "Okay, now this person needs some help." They need training in how- Yeah. ... to set clear KPIs, how to have development conversations, how to deliver constructive feedback, how to manage their own time, and balance between the doing and the managing. You know, there's just so many opportunities. You know, mentoring is very important for first-time managers as well, um, and then fostering that, uh, culture of continuous feedback and development so that they can help their people succeed, they can achieve, um, you know, the KPIs that their team are set within the timelines that are upset, that are, that are set, but also that they help themselves to achieve and to progress. I think sometimes managers feel like, "I'm helping my team to progress and to succeed, but what about me?" Yeah. "Who's helping me to succeed?"

 

And that's where, you know, uh, HR and organizations can make sure to do that, by giving sufficient training, especially to first-time managers.

 

And, and just to finish on this point, like, you know, from my own experience, I literally remember very vividly when I became a first-time manager. Now, I love people. Like I said, I love talent. I couldn't wait to be a manager of people and help people thrive within my team, but, you know, I became a manager overnight and I didn't get any training. I got no guidance. Yeah. I was already extremely, um, busy with my own workload, and suddenly I had to manage three people on top of that, that had very clear expectations of what they thought I should be giving them, but I didn't really know, you know, how I could deliver on that, et cetera. So I understand the pain of that because, for me, as a first-time manager, like, I felt that pain. So I love now that I can help first-time managers, especially those in the early career space, um, to, uh, be a b- be a better manager and understand how, how to do that in a very balanced way.

 

And it's, it's funny because I also remember my first time being a manager and, Sinead, I was terrible. I was terrible. So I love people, I love to help people. You know that. It's, it's, it's how I spend my days.

 

But I was a total micromanager because I was so worried about getting it wrong and trying to keep all the stuff going, everything that you've just mentioned. There's... Literally, you're caught in the middle as a manager. You say squeeze in the middle, I say caught in the middle management.

 

And so I felt I needed to know everything at all times. Uh, like, it was, it was really hard for me and probably... And it was really hard for the people who I was trying to look after. So again, where is that little flag that goes up that says, "Just because this person is really skilled as an individual contributor, it doesn't mean that they can slot into management without any support"?

 

It reminds me of that book, What Got You Here Won't Get You There, right? And, and I think we just don't spend enough time thinking about, you know, the people who, who move into different types of roles and what support they need, and

 

I'm really glad that you're... that you're in this space and that you're doing the work for more organizations, that you're not, you know, confined to one 'cause you get to touch so many now.

 

And, um, I think the last thing I want to highlight is, you mentioned the evolving work models. I had a conversation yesterday with somebody and I had to remind them, we're only three years in to this work model.

 

It's very new still. It's very young. It still has lots of, of, you know, tweaks to be made, uh, and refinements to happen, and I think people need to do with a bit of patience and grace with the model and to not give up and to invest in the training and invest in the support, so I know you're aligned with me on that.

 

Absolutely. Um, so, so moving on, so to my next one, right? And we're gonna stick actually with first-time manager managers, okay? So how do you in Future Routes help those managers create a better workday? So how can you specifically help them? Yeah, so, um, well, the, the, the training, um, that I mentioned earlier, which is around KPIs, you know- Yeah. ... having those constructive, uh, conversations, et cetera, but really what I try to do is around mindset. Mm. Because, especially for first-time managers, it is that, like you said, as an individual con- contributor, you're trying to manage yourself, right? Yeah. Your own time, your own workload, and achieve your own KPIs within the context of the team and the broader company vision, uh, purpose, goals, et cetera.

 

Um, but then you become a manager, and sometimes people can be very resentful and say, "Well, actually, you know, this is just an extra load- Yes. ... uh, on, to my already busy workload," et cetera.

 

So I find being a manager is about mindset, um, and when I became a manager, like, I re- I didn't want to be a manager. I hated when people referred to me as, you know, their boss. I was like- Yeah. ... "I'm not your boss." Like, "I'm your coworker. I just happen to be the person who can give you clarity and who can give you guidance, and that's my job, and my job is to help you, you know, um, achieve in, in work, but also to be happy in work, um, and I can do that by giving you clarity." Now, you may not always like the clarity I can give you, but the one thing managers can do is give clarity.

 

Yeah. Um, and that's done through strong communication. I've said earlier, that's something that there's a gap, um, e- in manager training.

 

So I start with mindset. I think everything's about mindset, and of course, I, I love the work of, you know, Carol Dweck in terms of growth mindset and- Right. ... fixed mindset, and anybody who is on, you know, leadership training or manager training will definitely do work around, um, mindset and, and, uh, the, the work of Carol Dweck.

 

So I think, you know, sometimes, uh, we forget that we control our own minds. You know, mindset is something... We have our minds. We can decide how to set it, okay? Yeah. And that's what I try to help managers do, to lean into this, uh, privilege almost of being able to help people, shape people, uh, direct people.

 

Um, I remember during COVID, you know, kind of the mantra of myself and my team was Albert Einstein's quote of, "In every difficulty lies opportunity."Um, so if you are seeing the difficulty in being a manager, then that's your fixed mindset. But if you're seeing the opportunity that you can have as a manager, then that's your growth mindset. So that's something that, that quote always stuck with me through COVID. Right. Whenever we thought that things were tough, I was like, "Well, what's the opportunity here?" And it really was just that mindset shift. So that's a lot of the work I try and do with managers, is trying to instill that into them, that they understand that when a team is struggling with a task, for example, that's your trigger to sit down with them, have that conversation, and actually have that mindset of opening up to listening to them- Wow. ... and then also helping them find a way forward.

 

Uh, like I remember once, um, um, somebody from my team came to me and said, "I'm just finding it really difficult to manage my day." Um, and we sat down and I talked to her about, you know, Stephen Covey and th- the grid of, like, do, don't, delegate, delay, you know, urgent, less urgent tasks. Um, she was doing a list every morning, but the list was actually overwhelming her.

 

Yeah. So when we actually layered that in with do, don't, delegate, delay, then she knew what to prioritize and bring to the top of that list, you know? Um, so I think that's where my role now in training managers is helping them, as you do, Niamh, um, in having those tools in their toolkit- Yeah. ... uh, that they can draw from when a team member asks them something like that, "How do I manage my day?"

 

Uh, 'cause when you can do that, then, you know, it feels great that you can help people. And it's a real game changer when you can remove those blockers for people. So the other thing that I tend to do a lot as well is writing team charters. Oh, yeah. And I'm sure that's something, you know, that, uh, you use as well. Um, I found it definitely transformational around the hybrid space for me and my team, um, at the time.

 

Um, so it's where I love strategy on a page. Like, I worked in marketing for 12 years in Irish Distillers, so we love a good presentation deck, you know.

 

Um, but actually, I now just look at a strategy on a page. Yeah. So instead of having 40 slides, it's like, "Okay, how can we say this on a page?" And the team charter gives that clarity to teams. And as a manager, then, it gives you that clarity too and some structure to have those conversations. So typically, in a team charter, like, there's plenty of templates to download online, you'll have your mission and your objectives of your, the company, but of your team within achieving that. You'll have, you know, the scope of your team, what's in scope, what's out of scope

 

- Yes. ... for your team. Um, you know, your team members, you might do work on, you know, w- understanding your super strengths, you might choose DiSC as a psychometric, or Gallup StrengthsFinder, et cetera. But understanding, you know, your team members, their strengths, what you like doing, what you're good at doing, um, and what are the boundaries of your role. Then how do we communicate with each other? There's just so many ways now that we can communicate, especially in a hybrid world.

 

So what's the purpose of Teams for us as a team? Yes. Do we use WhatsApp as a team? What's the purpose of email? 'Cause it still has a purpose for us as a team, et cetera. You know, um, and then, of course, we look at our resources and our support, our budgets, um, uh, the, the team roles, et cetera. So, for me, uh, mindset is massive when it comes to training of managers, and then helping them with something as practical as a team charter. And

 

I could talk to you all day about t- team charters, because you're right, I think they are simple but massively understated. But one thing I want to pick up on is this idea of, you know, the manager being a good role. So, like, you mentioned there a little while back that you, you didn't want to be known as the boss, because you're still a colleague, you just have a different function.

 

Now, I would disagree with that slightly, Sinead, because I would say that a good manager, you can be a boss, right? And I wonder, 'cause I fell into this trap, if you have bad role models, so if you don't have a great manager, if you don't have a great leader, you almost see being the boss as a bad thing, as a blocker instead of an enabler. Do you know what I mean? So you'll see the managers, "No, no, no, I-

 

I'm not that kind of manager. No, I'm somebody who can give you clarity, who can give you support, who can communicate well with you, who can help you develop." But actually, that's being a good boss, that's being a good leader, that's being a good manager.

 

And so what I love about the work that you're doing is not only are you developing people for their current role, but I see you creating better role models so that the next wave of employees can say, "Being a manager is a good thing. It's something I aspire to be. I want- I get excited because I'm the boss, 'cause that allows me to lead and to bring people with me and it's no longer a negative in the workplace, it's actually a positive and something I'm really proud and really happy to be able to do." Do you know what I mean? So I think the mindset is so, so important there even shifting how we approach management and how that's seen. What, what do you think about that, or do you think I'm completely, completely wrong?

 

No, I think you're completely right. And for me, um, you know, uh, a manager is a guide, um, and, uh, a manager is a coach.

 

Uh, and a manager is in the doing with you- Yeah. ... you know? Um, and we, you know, we, we all know the tinct- distinction between a manager and a leader. And of course, part of management is leading.

 

Yeah. Um, but part of management, a big part of it is- is in the doing- Yes. ... is in the delivery with the people. Yes. And that's where I have an issue with the word boss, because boss, um, for me, uh, creates a separation between you and them.

 

Um, whereas, you know, if you're in it together as a team, uh, then, you know, you should be equal members within that team. It's just that, like you said, I have a role where I can provide that guidance and clarity, et cetera.

 

Um, so, look, are in a massive time of change in the evolution of the way we work. we Um, the, uh, by the end of this year, 27% of the workforce will be Gen Z, will be Centennials. Oh,

 

And by the end of next year, 2026, they will have outnumbered Millennials in the workplace. wow. And I think a lot of the work I do with employers, you know, when I talk about Centennials, they think, "Oh, graduates, the early talent." The eldest Centennial is 27.... uh, they're already junior managers. They're already- I mean that. ... team leads. They're already the first-time managers that I'm training, you know?

 

So that's, again, where I try to help, uh, companies understand, eh, this generation. That, yes, they are early talent, and we'll be attracting them to work in our businesses until 2030, and then alpha will come.

 

Um, but, uh, they're, alpha are about 12 for context now. The, the, the, uh, the, the youngest, or sorry, the eldest gen alpha is 11, 12.

 

Um, so they're a little bit off joining the workforce, but not too far off. Um, so yeah, I, I help organizations understand the first-time managers tend to be, uh, Gen Z.

 

Yeah. And they have those different set of expectations, eh, that I talked about earlier. Um, so they are shaping the future of work, and they're shaping the now of management. Wow. Um, so you have centennials now for the first time managing centennials.

 

Um, and a few, if organizations don't understand how to attract these guys in as graduates, they certainly don't know how to, um, develop them as managers. Um, so yeah, look, there's, it's a very interesting time in the evolution of, of work. But the, uh, the, the biggest thing I see in terms of manager space, and first-time managers in particular, is the company not understanding that it's a different generation that are now managers. They aren't millennials. They aren't X'ers. They aren't boomers. The boomers actually are retiring more and more. What were the boomers' strengths? Well, those strengths were human skills. If we think of centennials and the youngest generations of the workforce, what are their strengths? Digital.

 

Mm-hmm. So what we're losing at one end of an organization is our human skills. What we're gaining at the other end is digital skills. And I think when we look at the L&D lens for companies, there's an overemphasis, I think, currently on digital skill development.

 

And what I'm finding people coming to me more with is actually the human skills development. Yeah. So I think we're overemphasizing, over-budgeting, eh, over-focusing, on digital skills development, and we are actually losing, through retirement, the people who had specialized in human skills.

 

Eh, and we're not actually making sure they're mentoring this younger generation coming in. So anyways, massive change happening, and I, yeah, I just love this space and helping companies to understand this space. Sinead,

 

I feel if we had a mic, you should drop it- ... honestly, because I want people to listen back to those last two points. They are so important, recognizing that they are already the managers. I think a lot of people will be listening, going, "She's right. Oh my

 

God, she's right. I was so busy working, I didn't realize that had already happened." Because it sneaks up on you. So I think that is, you have to just listen to that again.

 

And you are singing the same song as me in terms of the focus on human skills. But never has someone explained it so clearly in terms of the different generations and what's retiring versus what's coming in.

 

I think that is so, so important. So I'm going to leave our listeners with that. I don't want to give them any more. I want them to really think about those two points 'cause they are crucial.

 

They are the cornerstone. Sinead, if anyone is interested in getting support from you, I'm sure everyone is interested in getting support from you. Is LinkedIn the best place to find you? Is that right?

 

Absolutely. So Sinead Dherasy on LinkedIn or Future Roots. Brilliant, and I'm gonna put your details in the show notes Sinead, as always, it's a pleasure. I'm gonna continue talking to you after this, finishes recording. We can talk for as well.

 

hours.

 

Um, but look, until next time, stay well and have a better workday. Thank you for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed this episode. The Better Workday Podcast is about helping you have a better workday, so we'd love to hear your thoughts and questions.

 

You can find our social media details as well as any references from this episode in the show notes.